And, what is the danger that could possibly | dominions a set of men more sincerely atarise from so doing? We are told that the tached, or better affected to his person and catholics differ from all other sects. You government, than the noblemen and gentlemay endure dissenters, you may endure men men who represent the catholic body in Ireof no religion, but you may not endure the land; but," added the noble earl," these catholics, because they do not acknowledge noblemen and gentlemen have long ceased to the king's supremacy. Great stress has been have any influence over the great mass of the laid upon the objection on the part of the Roman catholics in Ireland." Why then, I petitioners to take this oath; and this very would ask, should we hesitate to grant the circumstance, did no other consideration.ap- prayer of the petition, which goes to affect a ply, would abundantly and clearly expose comparatively small number of persons, and the falsity, inconsistency, and absurdity of who are described as loyal and faithful subthe assertion, that the petitioners hold as an jects, and yet grant to the lower orders of article of their creed, "that no faith is to be the great body of the Irish catholics, reputkept with heretics." Nothing now, it has edly a contaminated mass, every thing they been observed, in the course of this debate, can reasonably enjoy under the constitution? remains to exclude the catholics from a full The argument of the noble earl involves this participation of the benefits of the constitu- farther inconsistency. He entertains fears tion, but their sanctimonious regard for the that great catholic proprietors would soon dictates of an oath! And yet, up to this very exclusively be returned for the counties, by a hour, we have been told, that catholics con- great majority of the catholic freeholders; sider themselves as not obliged to keep faith and yet, almost in the same breath, he aswith heretics, and, consequently, pay no re-serts, that persons of that description have gard to the oaths they take with them. But this is not all. Let your lordships consider what this much talked of oath is in reality and in fact. Perhaps, many who talk so loudly of it, are far from understanding it. In point of fact, the oath of supremacy, as it now stands is not positive but negative. It does not assert that the king is the supreme head of the church, but that no foreign prince is so to be considered. It has been repeatedly argued and demonstrated, that the sense in which the Roman catholics regard the pope as supreme head of the church, is a theological, not a political consideration.-I shall not detain your lordships at this late hour with any further observations. If no other service is derived from the agitation of this question, this good will undoubtedly arise from it: that after all the letters and pamphalets which have been written against the catholics, it will be clear to the conviction of your lordships, that, from all their profes-you withhold these privileges. I hope I sions and all their declarations, doctrines have have proved, that you have nothing to fear been insisted upon, which were never enter- from granting the prayer of this petition. if tained by the persons to whom they have you have any thing to fear, the way is to give been attributed. The catholics will go from up those distinctions which at present exist. your bar acquitted by the most enlightened The true way to meet that danger is by doing assembly. The question of actual attach- away those distinctions, and firmly uniting ment I will never enter into. But this I those two bodies into one. I trust, I have must say, that with very little exception, also proved, that there is throughout your there has been an almost unanimous agree- empire, no outpost so vulnerable as Ireland, ment, as to the loyalty and attachment of It is an old citadel, whose superstructure that body. The argument of one noble lord, you yourselves have demolished; but as for who spoke early in the debate of this night shelter, at present it affords you none! My (the earl of Buckinghamshire) is inconsis-lords, I have no more to say. I am ashamed tent and absurd in the extreme. The noble at this late hour to have trespassed so long earl sait, that "his Majesty had not in his upon your time. I do entertain a belief, ceased to have any influence over the great body of the Roman catholics! Yet, entertaining so high an opinion of these noblemen and gentlemen, these are they on whom and on whom alone, you are desirous of placing these restraints. To presbyterians you give a full participation in the blessings of your constitution. From them you withhold nothing. Yet, from the catholic noblemen and gentlemen of Ireland you withhold every thing. My lords, how can this be reconciled with any principle of reason or of justice? How can you withhold these blessings from men who have risked their lives in defence of their country, and in defence of those laws in which they earnestly pray to be made joint partakers? You owe much to the zeal, the loyalty, and the active exertions of the protestants of Ireland, but to no set of men do you owe more than to the catholic noblemen and gentry from whom that the petitioners be heard, by their counsel, before the said committee, upon their petition, if they think fit. Ordered, that it be an instruction to the said committee, that they do admit counsel to be heard, at the same time, in favour of the said bill, against the said petition.-On the motion of Mr. Rose, the house, in a committee, went through the bill for regulating the office of that the force of reason, like the rays of the sun, is breaking in upon us, and that the day is not far distant, when she will triumph over all prejudices, and will produce a decision favourable to the cause of your petitioners. I am persuaded, that the agitation of this question will be of service, that an impression will be made on the minds of the catholics that there is a growing desire to examine their case, and that whatever degree of pre-paymaster of the forces. The report was judice may still prevail amongst us, there is nevertheless, so much liberality, that the catholics will retire from your bar confident of ultimate success. Lord Sidmouth rose to say a few words by way of explanation. It was his idea, as well as his wish, that all remaining restrictions on the relgion of the catholics of Ireland, if any did remain, should be removed. He would also allow them a full community of civil rights with the rest of his majesty's subjects; but never would he agree to put into their hands powers sufficient to subvert the con stitution. The house then divided, when the numbers were, For the motion. Contents 37 12 Against the motion. Contents 133 Proxies 45 Majority against the motion 49 178 129 brought up, and ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday.-Mr. Western proposed that all gentlemen upon the corn committee should have votes, which was agreed to.-Admiral Markham gave notice, that on Wednesday he should move for the naval papers, of which he had given a previous intimation.-Ordered, that the order of the day, for the house to resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of the report which was made from the committee to whom the petition of the master, wardens, freemen and commonalty, of the mystery of vintners of the city of London, under their common seal, was referred, be now read: and the same being read; it was resolved, that this house will, to-morrow, resolve itself into the said committee.-Ordered, that the order of the day, for the house to resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, upon the bill for repealing so much of an act, made in the 34th year of his present majesty, as exempts slate, the value whereof shall not exceed twenty shillings per ton, brought coastwise within Great Britain, from the duty thereby granted, be now read: and the same being read; the house resolved itself into the said committee; and, after some time spent therein, Mr. Speaker resumed the chair; and Mr. Alexander reported from the committee, [MINUTES]-A petition of several persons that they had gone through the bill, and interested in British ships and vessels fre-made several amendments thereunto, which quenting and trading to the port of London, they had directed him to report, when the was presented to the house, and read; ta- house will please to receive the same. Orking notice of the bill to repeal two acts,dered, that the report be received to-mor passed in the 6th and 32d years of his late row. The order of the day being read, for majesty, for the regulation of lastage and the house to resolve itself into a committee ballastage in the river Thames, and to make of the whole house, upon the bill for making more effectual regulations relating thereto; more effectual provision for the supplying of and setting forth, that the same contains se- cities and market towns in Ireland with waveral clauses and provisions which, if passed ter; resolved, that this house will, to-morinto a law, would be very injurious to the row, resolve itself into the said committee. petitioners; and therefore praying, that they-Ordered, that the order of the day, for the may be heard, by counsel, against so much of the said bill as affects them, and that the same may not pass into a law as it now stands. Ordered, that the said petition be referred to the consideration of the committee to whom the said bill is committed; and At six o'clock on Tuesday morning the house adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, May 13. second reading of the bill for granting to his majesty certain additional stamp duties, for amending the laws relating to the stamp duties, and for indemnifying persons who have acted as notaries public, without being duly licensed in Ireland, be now read: and the same being read; the said bill was read a second time, and committed to a committee of the whole house, for to-morrow.-A petition of Sir T. S. M. Stanley, bart. was presented to the house, and read; taking notice of the bill for improving the passage between the town of Liverpool and the county of Chester, at the Rock Ferry, on the river Mersey, and for levying tolls on vessels using the same; and setting forth, that the petitioner and his ancestors have for time immemorial been seised of an ancient and very yaluable ferry on the Cheshire side of the said river Mersey, called Eastham Ferry; and in case the piers, slips, and quays, in the said bill mentioned, are made and extended in the manner thereby proposed, the petitioner may be greatly prejudiced, and the profits of the said ferry considerably diminished; and therefore praying, that he may be heard, by his counsel, or agents, against the said bill, and that the same may not pass into a law. Ordered, that the said petition do lie upon the table, until the report be received from the committee to whom the said bill is committed; and that the petitioner be then heard, by his counsel, or agents, against the said bill, upon his petition, if he thinks fit. [PETITION FROM CORNWALL RESPECTING THE TENTH NAVAL REPORT.-A petition of the gentlemen, clergy, freeholders, and inhabitants, of the county of Cornwall, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth, "that the abuses in the expenditure of the public money, which have been lately brought to light by the commissioners of naval enquiry, have filled the minds of the petitioners with alarm and indignation, and they call upon the house for the speedy remedy of such abuses, and for the exemplary punishment of the offenders; and that abuses in the expenditure of the public money (at all times matter of grievance) are peculiarly felt at this time, when so great a weight of taxation falls upon all ranks of people; and that a defence has been attempted of the guilt of the offenders, by the assertion that no actual mischief has been sustained by these gross breaches of trust and offences against law, as if the direct violation of a statute were not a high crime and misdemeanour without the aggravation, that the violation of which the petitioners complain was systematic, and committed by a confi. dential servant of the crown, himself the framer of the act which he has broken, and enjoying an increased salary under that very act, in full satisfaction of all wages and fees, and other profits and emoluments theretofore enjoyed by former treasurers; and that such a defence naturally increases the fear that peculation in the expenditure of the public money is not confined to the naval department; and that the petitioners have long submitted to severe privations, in the persuasion that they were necessary to the welfare and safety of the country, and they claim, as their right, that the money which is liberally granted shall be legally applied; and that the petitioners look with a confident hope to the house, after their votes of the 8th and 10th days of April last, that, as constitutional guardians of their liberty and property, they will neither be deterred nor diverted from a full and impartial enquiry into all abuses, in whatever department they may exist; and that the enquiry now begun will not cease, until all abuses in every public board be remedied, since so only will the minds of the petitioners be satisfied, the credit of the government be upheld, and that free constitution be preserved inviolate, which is the sacred birthright of Englishmen; and that lord viscount Melville, having been declared guilty of a high misdemeanour, by the vote of the house of the 8th of April last, a civil action is inadequate to the end proposed, and in itself incapable of satisfying the demands of public justice." Ordered to lie upon the table. [PETITION FROM COVENTRY RESPECTING THE TENTH NAVAL REPORT.]-A petition of the principal inhabitants of the city and county of the city of Coventry, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth," that it appears to the petitioners, from the tenth report of the commissioners of naval en-` quiry, and by the votes of the house of the 8th and 10th days of April last, decisions which have excited the highest veneration and gratitude in their breasts, that there has been the most gross and scandalous misapplication of the public money in the office of lord viscount Melville, with his privity and connivance; and the petitioners deeming it highly essential to the detection of further mal-practices, that every department of government should undergo a strict and impartial scrutiny, and that every delinquent may be brought to exemplary punishment, humbly intreat that the powers so wisely and judiciously by the house intrusted to the said commissioners, and by them so ably, uprightly, and indefatigably employed, may be continued, or, if thought necessary, fur ther extended." Ordered to lie upon the table. [PETITION FROM ESSEX RESPECTING THE TENTH NAVAL REPORT.]-A petition of the noblemen, and the humble petition of the gentlemen, clergy, and freeholders, of the county of Essex, convened by the high she- the subject matter of their message to the riff, at Chelmsford, the 28th day of May, lords, on Friday, the 3d day of this instant 1805, was presented to the house, and read; May, desiring that their lordships will give setting forth," that the petitioners humbly leave to lord viscount Melville to come to feel, that it is no less their duty than their the select committee of this house, to whom earnest wish and desire, to offer their warm- the tenth report of the commissioners of est thanks to the house for their decisions naval enquiry (respecting the office of the on the 8th and 10th of April last, whereby treasurer of his majesty's navy) stands rethey so clearly demonstrated, and justly cen-ferred, in order to be examined at that comsured, the gross violation of law, and breach of public duty, committed by lord viscount Melville whilst he held the office of treasurer of his majesty's navy; and the petitioners further beg leave to express the satisfaction they feel in witnessing, by subsequent votes of the house, their determination of prosecuting enquiries into all other violations of law and abuses of public trust, which may have existed in any other department of the public expenditure; and that, in the present situation of the empire, engaged in a war of unparalleled expense and difficulty, the petitioners feel, that it is essentially necessary to insure the strictest application of the national resources to the great and important objects for which they are called forth; that they entertain the fullest persuasion, and it is their earnest wish and prayer, that the house will exercise that control over the management of the public money which in their wisdom may appear necessary; that they will persevere in those measures which they have already begun; and that they will establish a system of just and prudent economy in every branch of the public receipt and expenditure." Ordered to lie upon the table. [LORD MELVILLE.]-A message was delivered from the lords stating, "that the lords do give leave to the lord Harrowby to come to the select committee of the house of commons, to whom the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry (respecting the office of the treasurer of his majesty's navy) is referred, to enquire into the application of any monies issued to the treasurer of the navy for naval services to purposes not naval, and whether any, and what representations were made to the lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury, or the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the withdrawing from the bank any sums of money so issued since the passing of the act of 25 Geo. III. c. 31; and also into the proceedings had for the recovery of the debt due to the crown by the late Adam Jellicoe; in order to be examined at that committee, if his lordship thinks fit;" and also," that the lords do desire a present conference with this house, in the painted chamber, upon mittee." And then the messengers withdrew, -Resolved, that this house doth agree to a conference with the lords, as is desired by their lordships. And the messengers were again called in; and Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith. And then they again withdrew.-Ordered, that a committee be appointed to manage the said conference. And a committee was appointed accordingly. Then the names of the managers were called over; and they went to the conference, and being returned; Mr. Leycester reported, "that the managers had met the lords at the conference, which was managed on the part of the lords by the Duke of Norfolk; and that the conference was to acquaint this house; that the lords, always desirous that a good intelligence and right understanding should be maintained betwixt the two houses, and persuaded that nothing can tend more effectually thereunto than a close adherence to the ancient and regular methods of proceeding between the two houses, have desired this conference upon the subject matter of the message sent by the house of commons for leave for the lord viscount Melville to attend the select committee of that house in order to be examined, to communicate to the house of commons; that it appears undeniably, by an uniform series of precedents down to the present time, that the course adopted by the lords, respecting the giving leave to the members of their lordship's house to go down to the house of commons, has been to permit the members of their lordship's house, on their own request, to defend themselves in the house of conimons, if they think fit, on any points on which that house has not previously passed any accusatory or criminating resolutions against them; and also, to permit the menbers of their lordship's house, on the request of the house of commons, to give evidence, if they think fit, before that house, or any committee thereof, on those points only on which no matter of accusation or charge is at that time in any manner depending against them before that house, wether the same shall then have been resolved by the house of commons or not.-That the lord's had also directed them to acquaint the house of com mons, that their lordships, relying with the most perfect confidence that the house of commons are at all times as desirous to preserve the privileges of the lords as to maintain their own, have given leave to lord viscount Melville (who had also previously made it his own unqualified request) to go down to the select committee of the house of commons, to whom the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry (respecting the office of the treasurer of his majesty's navy) is referred, to enquire into the application of any monies issued to the treasurer of the navy for naval services to purposes not naval, and whether any and what representations were made to the lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury, or the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the withdrawing from the bank any sums of money so issued since the passing of the act of 25 Geo. III. c. 31; and also, into the proceedings had for the recovery of the debt due to the crown by the late Adam Jellicoe; in order to be examined at that committee, if he shall so think fit, his lordship, nevertheless, conforming himself in all respects to the course directed to be communicated to the commons as above." [PETITION FROM OXFORD RESPECTING THE PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.]—A petition of the mayor, bailiffs, and commonalty, of the city of Oxford, in common council assembled, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth," that the petitioners having seen, by the votes of the house, that a petition has been introduced there from certain Roman catholics of Ireland, on behalf of themselves and others, professing the Roman catholic religion, complaining of divers restraints and incapacities to which they are subject, by the statutes now in force against them, and praying to be relieved therefrom; the petitioners pray the house, that the several statutes constituting and establishing those restraints and incapacities, of which the said petition complains, may be preserved inviolate, inasmuch as those statutes appear to have been devised, by the wisdom of our ancestors, as the best and surest means of giving permanency and security to the protestant government of this country in church and state, and as, in the firm belief of the petitioners, the same, or equally as strong, reasons now exist for the continuance of those statutes as when they were enacted." Ordered, that the said petition do lie upon the table. [ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]-The VOL. IV. order of the day being read for taking into consideration the Petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and the petition itself (see p. 97) being also read by the clerk, Mr. Fox rose and spoke as follows: Sir, at the same time that I cannot help feeling a considerable degree of anxiety at being about to bring before the house a subject which, according to my conception of it, seems, in its probable consequences, some nearer and some more remote, to be of the very highest importance; yet, I confess, I feel infinitely less agitated than upon many other subjects on which I have lately had occasion to address you. It is certainly a sort of recreation, if I may be allowed so to express myself, after having been obliged to perform the harassing duties of accusation; after having promoted enquiries into circumstances, certainly not more honourable to the country at large than to the individual concerned in them; after having had my mind so harassed and occupied, to feel that I am not now the mover of accusation, but that I am pleading the cause of my fellow subjects, and that I am endeavouring to add to the strength of the country, without taking from the credit, power, or authority of any living man in the empire. I cannot help being sensible of the contrast between the duties lately imposed upon me, and that of attempting to draw the attention of the house to a subject, which, however`embarrassing the discussions of it may be to some persons, has at least this advantage, that it rests entirely on principles of general affection and good will, connected with views which every man must approve, and no man can condemn. The question, sir, that I have the honour of bringing before you, and I do feel it a great honour to have been desired to bring it before you, is no less than a petition, signed not indeed by any very great number of persons, but embracing, and I take it at the lowest calculation, when I say, one-fifth of his majesty's subjects. Nay, further, I believe I shall not be incorrect, if I state them at one-fourth of the whole of his majesty's subjects in Europe. My duty, therefore, calls upon me to plead the cause of 3 or 4 millions of the people of Ireland, without reference to the proportion they bear to the population of that part of the empire, but which must be allowed to contain the greater proportion of the catholic subjects of his majesty a proportion amounting to nearer a fourth than a fifth of the whole population of the empire. I feel particularly fortunate, that when I am * 3 H |